Paul's Corner

I wonder what set that off, did something happen in OZ (or elsewhere)?

But I agree with you ultimately that it would be awesome if there was more tolerance of everyone's choices in this world to make the decisions s/he need to make for their own lives and to assure that everyone has the ability and the support to make whatever choices (difficult or easy) they need to make.

Dearest Paul, so glad to read that you are back!

Yes, the battle for choice will be raging in the United States also in the very near future.

Our conservative government tries to rule our lives, through Supreme Court selections, etc., and refusals to help the living sick and downtrodden, while worried about the fetus state. An assault on our young women is coming, through an attempted turnback of Roe V Wade.

Right to life, hey? What about the rights of our young men and women sent to Iraq to fight a
bogus war, concocted by the neo-conservatives in the highest positions of our government?

Australia also was sucked into this morass of death and destruction in Iraq.

I am an old lady, but when my daughters who have to travel into New York City on trains and subways quietly told me that they have trepidations every day, since London, but they go anyway, I want to lash out, for where is their right to life?

Why are our armed forces not in the U.S. protecting our right to life, rather then being in Iraq where they are hated?

Shalom and peace,

Gran Mil

Hello PC Friends,

I wholeheartedly agree with all the previous posts. I've called it greed, self-righteousnes and self-centeredness. I believe that everyone has an agenda-good or bad. I just wish that many leaders in this world would have a human agenda and treat their fellows in a more kind and gentler fashion.

HUGS!
Abeth

There is a lot of fear on this front here in the States, because a Supreme Court justice has retired, and will be replaced with someone much more right-wing. I would say "conservative", but right-wingers give conservatives a bad name!

Women's rights have become a "fringe issue" of late--meaning half the population has to fear that they will no longer be able to control their own bodies. I am astonished that the human rights of women are even in question in the 21st century.

Paul I know what you mean. Yes, in a perfect world it would be wonderful to have respect for all life. But in this work? Forget it. I know someone very close to me in my life, and very young, and she had to terminate the pregnancy. Even though, I am very much a woman of faith, I see this world as something that has created the necessary choice for such procedures. If this young woman were to have a baby, it would change her completely and most likely not for the better weather she gave the baby up for adoptation or not. Going through a pregnancy in itself is life altering, and I think our young ladies deserve to have the choice to opt out, especially when men (no offense) have become such assholes.

Love,Tea

Your topic has hit a nerve with me, Paul. I am so upset with government policies that are slowly taking away our right to choose, that I could spit nails.

It angers me when protesters belittle and degrade a woman who chooses to have an abortion, and if you are old enough to be pregnant, then you are a woman in my book. It should be your decision to terminate if you so choose, as it is your life and your body, and no one knows what your circumstances are. The only thing I don't agree with are the women who are too lax when it comes to birth control and use abortion as contraception. But again, that is a right that is in jeopardy now.

I also don't agree on the government's power to take little freedoms away from us. I shouldn't have to be fined if I choose not to wear my seatbelt when I drive to the store. I shouldn't have to be fined and be penalized if I choose to smoke in my own home or in my car. I shouldn't have to pay the ultimate price for forced "democracy" in a foreign country if my child chooses to be in the armed forces. I shouldn't have to choose fear over safety because some nut thinks there's a holy war going on and it's a good idea to blow up innocent people on their way to and from work. I could go on and on, but I won't. Please forgive me for ranting.

It's a losing battle and quite depressing to go out to vote on issues you feel strongly about, only to have no say in an election because the government is letting you exercise your "right" to vote, when in fact, your vote means nothing.

I see no answers to these and other problems our government thinks it should fix for our own good. Maybe it would be a good idea for me to just stick my head in the sand and hope it all goes away...

Sally C.

hi Paul:

How are ya doing? I havent been here lately cos i dont get online very often, but I wanted to tell you about my class, I got an A and it's great, cos its for my major, even though I have no idea what grade I had for "Strictly Ballroom" I did get good in my class.

Anyways, take care people and see yall later, buhbye,
Selena

Hmmmmmmm. Well. Okay, here’s the thing. It is hard to get started on writing these thoughts, but I just did a gulf swim with my 16 year old for two hours, so I’ll get going while the endorphins are kicked in.

Just meandered in with set expectations of what would be found before moving on, but I was surprised at what I read. Like stumbling over something, but instead of thinking “what is that”, the response is, “oh, there you are”.

So, I haven’t finished reading, but I’m feeling a little guilty about reading and not sharing, so just wanted to let you know I’m here. My undergraduate degree was in sociology/women’s studies with a discipline in small group dynamics. I’ve always been inspired by the formation of communities. My family has shown horses, dogs, llamas, goats, competed in synchronized swimming and other activities that form short term and periodic communities.

It is exciting that you’ve formed this e-community that has apparently been stable and supportive over several years. Reading your interactions gives me the feel of being in a Unitarian church service. And Paul. As the center you are so open. It is a trick to be open and not sound whiney. I haven’t felt any selfishness at all. “… life is full of heroism …” You have certainly been heroic to make the choice to live and lead given what life gave you this time around. I don’t know that I’ve ever known someone to be this open. I have to give it more thought (just the kind of thinker I am).

To share and not just read, here’s my synopsis and experience in some of the things y’all talk about:
· Southerner for many generations, southwest Florida. Yes, I am weary of hurricanes and tornadoes.
· Four children. Center of my universe.
· Exercise? Love to swim. I’ve always done whatever my kids have but I’ve decided to skip skim boarding because, well … it hurts. And because I want to keep swimming, walking and trail riding (horses). At university I swam synchro and coached my daughter’s team. But now she (Jesse Sage, the 16 year old) swims circles around me – I mean literally. Not sure when or how that happened.
· Spiritual? Completely. Practicing? Good intentions. I do actually have a candle lit for the astronauts.
· Recipes. Sorry, nothing to share. We cook southern/health food. Not an easy mix. I can’t follow or write a recipe. But if you ever want to cook hog jowls, mustard greens, pot liquor, hoppin’ john and key lime pie, I’m your girl. I’m still working on sweet potato pie. That’s the southern New Year’s Day meal for good luck.
· Career. Mostly full-time mama. Went from aerospace engineer (software) to founding alternative charter schools, teacher and director. The schools are Progressive, i.e., democratic, student driven, choice, authentic assessment – on a working ranch. Note to teachers who post here and are feeling frustrated with teaching to NCLB, try an alternative school.

If this is just a passing touch, thank you all for sharing this moment and the reminder to “Go placidly amid the noise and haste …” (in the words of the Desiderata) OR in the words of Bill and Ted “be excellent to each other”.

Summertime Blessings,

Mari-Jean

A thought on this strand. Deciding to terminate a pregnancy is something I hope I - or my children - never have to face. But I sadly and uncomfortably know in my heart there are situations in which I would want that option available. I taught a Lamaze class with a student who was an eleven year old retarded girl who didn't weigh 85 pounds, maybe 4'8". Incest and took her baby home. Not many rights to any kind of life going on there.

We need to build a world where every baby is planned and cherished. Pragmatically, until that time, we need this option. As discussed earlier, in the US the choice is under continual threat. I don't really get why laws governing wombs can be made by people who primarily do not have wombs. Maybe there needs to be a law that says those with vested interests get two votes. Or just those with wombs get two votes. Yea, yea that's it!

Sorry, drifting on to an entirely different subject :)

Mari-Jean

If you had carefully read the opening post of this thread, you would realize that y'all are pontificating on entirely the wrong issue.

http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16085648%255E1702,00.html

click me - we are in fact pontificating on the correct issue - choice, peoples rights to choose and for those who should know better to butt out - You are entirely correct in that the impetus for my rant is the story you have attatched to your post - thanks.

Click me, thanks for posting the link. Here in the States we had the Schiavo case, and even after the autopsy confirmed she was blind and her brain was functioning only in the most rudimentary way, her parents still insisted she could see. As a parent, I can understand.
Interesting that some of the people wanting to disregard her husband's insistence that she did not want to be kept alive like that are the very ones that claim marriage is sacred . . . I guess unless someone disagrees with them.
Cynical old me, I wonder if some friend of the husband in this Aussie case had a hand in this protest, cuz I'm pretty sure here that if the woman dies as a result of the attempt, that might change the charge from attempted murder to murder.And his attorneys could claim he didn't end her life, the state did, etc, etc. Not sure of all the legalities here and there, but would seem relevant to me.
As for the abortion issue, I wish no woman ever felt she needed one, but bottom line, I don't think the governement should legislate that a person in the making has precedence over one who is already here.
And of course, you are right, Paul, it's a choice issue, just from different angles.
Reminds me of a friend of mine a few years ago, who was commenting on all of the "test tube" babies, surrogates, etc. She wondered why those people just didn't accept that they were not going to have kids, and not use such medical technology to give birth.
Then I asked her how many kids would we have had if we didn't use the medical technology available to us? And I might add, we each have three. She had to admit she'd never thought of it like that.
Same subject, different ways of looking at it.
hugs and smiles,
deltalady aka Sally

Mari-Jean Welcome to the Corner! - hog jowls, mustard greens, pot liquor, hoppin’ john????? Feel free to jot down those recipes as you have got my curiosity all curious and my mouth a watering! I reakon a google on those terms is the next 5 minutes of my life.

Hello PC Friends,

I've really loved reading about everyone's point of view. I guess in this Corner we have "democracy"! Hope more post on this topic.

It's such a personal decision about abortion. I have three beautiful girls and can't now imagine my life without them. I do agree with many views that have been posted. Here in the States we have a right to pursue freedom and liberty. How liberating is it really to infringe on such a personal decision. I believe that more research and studies are in order to placate everyone. Women have to live with such a decision-not the people who dictate what women can and cannot do. I mean no offense to any men especially my husband!!

HUGS!
Abeth

Good Morning All,

Work has been slow for the past few days so I thought I'd stop in at the corner.

I've known a few women in my lifetime so far on both sides of the coin who have faced this issue. Mostly women who were trying to finish school, or their partners were, when money was scarce and relationships were not finalized (unsure if the fiance or boyfriend was going to stay around for the long haul). I've had friends that it proved to be a positive outcome despite how difficult making the final decision was. Friends who married and eventually started their own families when the time was right or were able to take more time in finding the RIGHT partner for their journey into familyhood. I've also known a student who felt that she had to live with the "mistake" as she refered to it and dropped out of school to live with her grandparents in the mid-west. I asked her at the time if she thought that she was being to hard on herself. She responded telling me she choose to take "responsiblity for her actions" and to have the baby. As though those who choose the other option are not taking responcibility.

My husband and I had our friends over the other night for dinner. Two months ago they had their first baby. While her husband was walking around the living room rocking the baby to sleep , she asked me the dreaded question, " do you want kids?" Being married six years and entering my early thirties that motherly instict hasn't kicked in and starting a family has never really been a desired goal. I was trying to think of how answer her question without sounding like a self centered woman who just wants the "easy life" of comming home to a quiet house. She spoke before I did as though the message she needed to get out was as vital as telling me that my house is on fire. She said, "men are always ready to have kids, but it is really YOUR baby" she said pointing a finger at my chest, "it takes everything out of you physically, emotionally, the baby needs you every second of the day. It is the most dependant creature on earth. You have no time for yourself at all, even going to the toilet is a luxury". I responded by asking her about her husband, she told me he helps out tremendously when he's not at work he's taking care of the house and taking care of baby to, "Can you imagine what'd I'd do if I were by myself, I don't even want to imagine it at all!" She then got up and they both looked at their baby with great anticipation in their faces and then her husband said,"I think he's ok, it'll be fine." I asked what he was going on because the baby was fast asleep and he told me, "well he doesn't sleep very much and when he does fall asleep and if he's woken up he lets out this hurling scream, I mean it can pierce and eardrum and we don't want to put you guys through that". Then my husband got up from the couch and looked at the baby. My husband commented, "That's funny how he smiles, he must be having a nice dream", " My friend's husband turned to my husband and said, " No I think he just pooped". My husband face turned green and he excused himself and went into the bathroom. When our friends left they continued staring at the baby as they walked down the driveway, "It'll be ok, ...did he open his eyes I think he opened his eyes...as long as we avoid speedbumps on the way home it'll be ok."

take care all,

please excuse the horrific grammer

:)

ON RECIPES. I’m very sure I made the disclaimer that I can neither follow a recipe nor write one. The thing is though, that southern cooking is most often shared by oral tradition, rather than written recipes. So, let’s pretend I’m the mama and you’re a daughter and I’ll share a process that is probably completely unusable to anyone … okay? And you really shouldn’t expect portions other than things like ‘some’, lil’ bit, bunch and so forth. Okay on a traditional southern New Year’s Day this is suppose to bring luck for the year.

We’d start by saying, “lil darlin’ go on out to the garden and bring in a mess – or two – of mustard greens”. In the bottom of a large pan with top, cook olive oil, fresh garlic (lots) and an onion with lots of salt and butter. Also hog jowls. I suppose this can be bacon as the jowls weren’t particularly lucky for the hog. I think the idea is to have fat and something smoked. Add the cut up greens and keep adding as they cook down. Stir from the bottom and cook on low all day. Usually would be done on December 31st and let to flavor until served the next day.

Pot liquor (or pot “likker”) is the thick juice that comes from the cooking down, eaten with corn bread. This is full of vitamins/minerals and I think in lean times, especially because greens are grown in the winter, it was a great food source. Oh, and clean garden greens really well. They like to hold sand – not pleasant to eat. Although around Atlanta and Appalachia, long ago, there were “pica eaters” who thought eating the Georgia red clay would be a good thing, especially for pregnant women. It turned out to be an idea not well grounded in nutritional science and sometimes tragic. Sad. But interesting … in a sick sort of way. Well, never mind then. Moving right along.

Hoppin’ John is rice with black-eyed peas. And I suppose other things could be added like red bell pepper. Rice is easy, so here’s (dried) black-eyed peas. While washing dried black-eyed peas, cook onion, garlic, salt, pepper, red bell pepper in olive oil. Also something smoked like bacon, but could be tofu for vegetarians. Add peas, cover with water, add 1 can or fresh tomatoes and juice of an orange or two (this is Florida after all). Stir a lot and often to form the thickness. Cook mostly all day; serve the next.

Corn bread as usual, add some sugar cane molasses (less if black strap and more if substituting honey) and whole kernels of corn. To be pretty, add red & green bell pepper and onion. But the kids might not eat it. Bake in oiled black frying pan (iron skillet). Lot’s of real butter.

You’ve got key lime pie covered already. It is nice having them fresh from the keys or the yard. Sweet potato pie and red velvet cake are the rest of the meal that is proven to bring luck for the year. I leave the baking to someone else as that would entail, once again ... following a recipe. I could be inspired to ask my Georgia cousins for the recipe, but then I’d have … a recipe. Maybe one of my daughters is going to be a baker.

So, thanks for the welcome and happy summertime to all in this comfortable space.

Mari-Jean

ON CHOICES and who should make them. Wow, y’all have been so open in sharing ideas and experiences without running over each other. You discussed the Terri Schaivo case here in Florida. This year we also had two nine year olds kidnapped out of their homes and killed by people previously convicted of violent crimes. Our charter school group was trying to shepherd charter legislation through the state legislature and nothing happened in session that didn’t have to do with these choices and who should have vested interest. We didn’t really need new law in these cases, but the legislators had to work it to be electable again. There were many people spending a great deal of energy on the issues, many self-serving and some sincere. But I didn’t see that anything happened that helped to make a safer world where children are not mistreated to the point that they grow up to be child murderers. Or young girls don’t end up brain dead after years of bulimia. I think we should fix the problem not the symptom.

Just a thought – which I think is pertinent but not connected or focused. Sorry. That seems to happen a lot. I married at17, not acceptable in my family, but tradition in the rural area we had moved. What WAS expected by my family was to go to university. So, I did that too and had my son, Donpaul, during finals of my first semester in college. I’m sure it must have been hard, but in hind-sight, it only seems like an adventure. Thanks to my family I had a great experience, went to football games, backpacked Europe and all the college things and Donpaul spent the first years of his life in a really good place. A choice was never offered me, but given one I might have made what would have been the wrong one.

This is a very convoluted point, but I think I can grab the strand of logic, and here it is - perhaps when upholding the right of the vested to make the choice, that vested person should be connected to and supported by trusted community and extended family. Donpaul is my best friend, we grew up together. He is a good man – such a positive force, a gift to the world. He has a good career, reads incessantly and is a true thinker. And as a late night habit, he is a guitar god. (music at http://soulfade.com/ )

NOW, I could share counsel with a teenager that could offer very different choices and visions for the future. So, without true community no one (vested person or legislator) makes the best choice.
Perhaps it would be more effective to have community building as the infrastructure of any planned change.

Wow! Hello all! It's been ages. I see everyone is doing pretty good. I just wanted you all to know I was thinking about you and I really miss being able to come in here as often as I did before. However the reason I'v been away is because I have been trying to open my own business.It is a lot of work let me tell you. But today I heard Oprah say something that has stuck to me like glue. You don't become what you want, You become what you believe! ( that's deep!)I am gonna be BIG in my career!lol

And yes Paul, I think you said it well in your first Post. But these are the signs of the times. I just wish that peace was desired more than trying to prove their point in such a violent manner! Or force others into there way of life. Free will is just what it says, free will!. Your personal choice to make ( right or wrong ).Maybe they missed that. Perhaps they do not know love.And I think it is pretty obvious that there is no respect for life. May God help us all. We are all so beautiful because we are all so different. Before we can see the beauty in others we must first see the beauty within ourselves. Before we can love and respect others we must first love and respect ourselves.

Our children are the future. Kids learn by what they see. This is not a good example to show them how to live life. Not by rage or violence. Life is not to be feared but enjoyed.And it is not what we say that makes the empact, but is what we do that leave a lasting impression of the course set for their future. Tomorrow is not promised to any one, but we must make the most out of everyday like it was our last.We all need to remember the power of one. One can make a difference and we should. For the better! For the good! Life is a precious gift. Live it boldly,lovingly, compassionately, and to the full!

God Bless you all! Miss ya much! Kei!

Ps.
Have you hugged someone you loved or told them that you loved them lately? They need to know that! How about a friendly hello or good deed for a stranger? It may be just what they need! We need to remember we are all connected to one another, let's make it a good one!

I never was a "Right to Life"-er.

I am a 34 year old woman, and I have pretty much ignored the whole "Right to Life", "Right to Choice" "Pro-this" "Pro-that" crap for MY whole life, because, after a while it just becomes so much white noise.

But Paul's post caused me to consider what I do *really* think of this issue. And, I'm winging it here, stay with me ... Does a woman have a "right to choose" what happens to her OWN body? Yes, of course. She can choose to have sex, or not. Choose to use contraception (ranging in effectiveness from not-very to essentially foolproof for multiple forms done at the right time of the cycle). Or not. Choose to raise a child, or not.

A cornerstone of our society has been to NOT grant the choice to kill - to end someone else's life, or not. So the question is - where does that life begin?

From my own point of view, I went through 6 years of infertility treatments. Shots, inseminations, in vitro fertilizations, the whole works. For the in-vitros they would harvest about 20-30 of my eggs and about 2 million of my husbands sperm, put them in a dish and let them go at it. After a day they'd call us up and say something like "23 eggs fertilized", (1 cell stage) then the next day "20 divided", (2 cell stage), then the next day "15 made it to 4 cells"... and so on... until at day 5 or 6 we had about 12 balls of cells (called blastocysts).

I never thought of those balls of cells as little lives. After all, they were in a test tube. Had they not been just eggs and a vial of ~- ~- only days ago? But then on the 6th day I arrived for the 'replacement'. The doctor brought in a photo of three of the balls of cells, chosen, I suppose, because they looked the best. the rest were placed in the cryo freezer, for future tries. "You are replacing 3?" I said. "Well, that's up to you." he replied.

My feeling was that - either it would work, or it wouldn't. If all 3 did "take" (that is, implanted in my uterus after replacement) then triplets is a risky pregnancy. "Just do 2" I said, and he did.

8 months later, we added 2 wonderful fraternal twin boys to our family. They just turned 5 last month. What about the the third one had I told then to put in cryo with the other "extras"? I think about that one almost every day. And I think about the "extras". It was a random pick. What if they had tossed Alec back in, what if they had got Marty?

So, my conclusion is -> were those balls of cells live little people at 6 days from fertilization? Absolutely. And probably a couple days before that.

Previously I had always wondered why the Catholic church was against 'assisted reproduction.' Why not permit us to make more Catholics? (I wondered). Well, finally I understand, who are we to create 10s, 100s of little lives indiscriminately, and then pick and choose who lives, who dies, and who gets stuck in the freezer compartment??

It follows that ... Just as it's against our society's laws and social mores to kill a walking, breathing human being, and it's reprehensible to us to kill an innocent child that depends on adults for care, we should find it equally appalling to flush a ball of cells or end the life of a human being that we can't see, but is thriving and nourishing through a pulsing umbilical cord, depending on Mom for care - just needing time till it can 'break out' safely and find a family that is desperate for a child to love.

After this experience, it seems to me that it is simply not our business to intervene in the creation or destruction of life. And should we inadvertently happen to create, the least we can do is not willfully destroy.

We have 5 children now, and I still think about "our embryos" every day. We are trying to arrange our lives so that we can afford to "break them out" of the freezer ASAP. And, the ones that survive the thaw, implant and are born, those will substantiate my theory that each little ball of cells was a perfect little person who, having been created (however indiscriminately) just needed to be nutured through that most fragile stage of infancy in order to prove that it was a life worth saving.

-marie

Doctor of Pharmacy
Mom of 5

Lillie
->Special Needs Adoption from Russia 9/1999

Scotty
->Special Needs Adoption from Russia 9/1999

Marty
->Conceived via In-Vitro, Born 7/2000

Alec
->Conceived via In-Vitro, Born 7/2000

Brendon
->Conceived while I took a month "off" the Pill, Born 7/2003

(After all those years of infertility treatments, I was taking the Pill to control PCOS symptoms, not taking for Birth Control. Imagine that I'd get spontaneously pg like that - in one month - unbelievable!)

Marie,

Wow. I really have nothing to add. I guess I just want to let you know that your words were heard and I will think about them and talk with others. Pay it forward. I keep thinking as I get older that wisdom will descend, but it hasn't. From my post, I guess you know I have and will continue to support the right of choice – on most issues.

The thing that HAS happened as I've gotten older is to realize that right and wrong is not black and white. There aren't good guys and bad guys and truth can be very elusive and changeable over time.

Sixty years ago scientists and the air force were cheered as heroes for developing and using the atomic bomb. Our planet and species has lived in the shadow of destruction every second since. The older kids I looked up to in school, left for Viet Nam believing in a righteous war, as I suppose our children in Iraq do now. Roe vs. Wade, Brown vs. Board of Education, forced bussing. It all seemed so straightforward. Now we are facing AIDS and cloning. On such a tiny planet, there is a whole group of people that hate western culture so badly, they will die to kill others. And none of it has a clear answer that we can be sure will still be right 500 years from now – or even next year.

I wish to leave my children with a world of John Wayne movies where there is a definable and defeatable enemy. I can’t even give them a world where human kind’s continued existence is assured. It seems that we as a species continually move ourselves technologically beyond what we can handle morally and spiritually.

It is SO easy to dismiss an opinion that is counter to ours when delivered by loud and aggressive people. Your message has been heard by me. As I said, I have nothing to add. No neat answers. In starting charter schools, especially a Title I school, I am faced with the knowledge that there are huge numbers of children pregnant with babies that are implicated with cocaine, incest, AIDS. Should those pregnancies be forced or even allowed to continue? I don’t KNOW! But with my mother’s heart I recognize yours and agree each tiny life is a miracle.

I don’t know when we got to be the grownups. I know I didn’t plan on it and I’m not great at it. Pete Seeger said to think globally and act locally. I think we can just deal with what is in front of us, speak with our hearts and listen. Perhaps this is the way humans will evolve to a place of safety. If we can survive ourselves. So, this entire wandering of thoughts is to thank you for sharing life through your eyes. I’ll be giving this more thought. And I won’t forget.

Namaste,

Mari-Jean

Marie - a good post and lots to think about - thank you. MY wife has had three major miscarriages - so one could assume we have lost three children or one can assume that nature took it's correct and immaculate course and they were never intended to "'break out' safely and find a family." I cant answer your post as I dont know if one egg is destined to survive and therefore trapped in a freezer or not. As you said there were many that did not take. Maybe it is about where we are at in life, what lessons etc I do not want to trivialise what you have said as it has affected me deeply and I respect your life experience.

One thing I thought as I read your post was this - what gives us the right to extend some ones life either against their will or by legislation?

Aghghgh it is a complicated subject - respect is a a good startng point and ending point.

I hope when my time comes, my family will respect my wishes and let me go. I do not want to be kept "alive" hooked up to machines when clearly, I was destined to die. Machines only prolong the agony for all involved, mentally, physically and financially, as there can only be one outcome. That is, the reality of death, whether it comes sooner or later, naturally or not...

Sally

An ex-coworker of mine lost her baby, a boy, who was due in October about a month ago. She named him Justine and had a funeral for him. Wow was that sad. I'm a pretty crusty old bird at age 39. But that just broke my heart.

Tea

Hello PC Friends,

MARIE-First, let me say, I certainly respect your point and courage to speak. Secondly, had we had a baby boy-his name was going to be Martin Alexander. We have three girls. My last pregnancy was quite an ordeal. I know that I could never survive a fourth. When I look at my girls-I think that wow-we are really, really blessed. I think about cases when birth control has failed-is it fair that she carry a baby to term if she never meant to get pregnant-hence the birth control? I truly believe it is a personal choice and decision. One would have to live with it-no matter if it's abortion, adoption or raising a child that wasn't wanted.

And, I applaud your courage to raise two special needs children. Having 5 is certainly keeping you busy!!

HUGS!
Abeth

Yesterday my family had the ritual of Lammas, traditionally a time for blessing our animals. Which we did. In counting blessings, the two youngest girls mentioned the Russian sub that was saved and the shuttle returning from the space station. Today it occurred to me that it was a cool thing that they considered the times humanity has come together to be blessings.

So the shuttle has been waved off until tomorrow. I was an engineer in aerospace in Florida when the first shuttle exploded. I can never forget watching the Y shaped cloud and numbly hearing some tourists ask if that was normal, knowing it was not. I’m thinking I want folks to hold these heroes, the best of us, until they are back on earth tomorrow. I know this group is pretty good with prayers, wishes and dreams, so please add these.

Eileen Collins, Wendy Lawrence, Charles Camarda, Stephen Robinson, James Kelly, Andy Thomas, Soichi Noguchi – God speed.

Mari-Jean

WISDOM NEEDED; PLEASE SHARE!!! Sorry to post again, I really think I am all “thunk” out and done for the month, but here is my real problem (and this IS sorta on the subject of choices and who makes them) … So, I came home from a day spent in doctor’s offices and labs with the eleven year old. I went for a walk on the beach to reclaim my day. This is why I always trust the gulf. The purple, peach, grey sunset had those rays that are so vibrant they seem solid. In the southern sky, there was a brilliant single rainbow. And the ebbing extra high tide made the best waves for skim boarding. The problem with that is my teenagers have been out every day this week looking for the perfect waves – and they had left for theatre rehearsal. Now, my priorities would be to call them home because you get the opportunity for the right waves much less than you get to play practice. But, I thought it would be too late, however I was wrong and the waves held and the surfer mob turned up and now I have to confess. Geez, shoulda followed those motherly instincts.

Which brings me to my question. I spent the day trying to find someone to agree with my motherly instincts that the youngest, Logan Reiley, doesn’t have to have her tonsils out. I’m not a babycry mama. I’ve raised four kids and seen a lot of blood and guts along the way. I’ve just never been asked to sign permission to sedate my child while they remove an organ that I’ve been instrumental in creating and maintaining.

Basically, I take the earth mother approach. They get healthy nutrition (Paul, forget about the pot likker and hoppin’ john recipe at this point) and environment, sleep and all those things that help them be truly happy. When some wandering virus does find its way in, we start raw garlic, Echinacea, vit. C. and salt water gargle, sometimes acidophilus. It has always worked. Not this time. I broke down and let her have antibiotics, which didn’t work either.

I am told the only danger – other than the danger of surgery – is that there is a higher rate of contracting polio, but since we have very little polio in our country, I shouldn’t think about it. My mother had polio, so I think about it. It just seems to me that if these glands are the first round of defense, she might need them, so my question has to be are they so diseased that they will never be healthy and work again? Why? Then I’m told about the increased pollution in our western environment and her system is just overloaded, which has implications that are just way to overwhelming.

She also lost ten pounds so far, which is ten percent of her weight. My college roommate writes nutrition textbooks and today taught me about how after losing fat, the body starts in on the lean tissue and suppresses the immune system. So we put her on these high fat drinks.

I know I said in an earlier post that I didn’t plan on being an adult and don’t seem to be doing a great job of it. So, here’s my plan. I’m getting a third opinion from an alternative/complimentary medicine doctor. AND I’m going to ask people I know that should have experience and opinions. That includes an organization I’ve been involved with for many years that represents hundreds of alternative schools world-wide, my own group of holistic democratic charter school parents … and you guys.

Yeah, yeah. I haven’t been here long, but I know you to,
1) be parents of lots of children
2) be predominantly alternative
3) be opinionated. Maybe it is better to say … hold strong opinions.

That’s my bargain with the universe. If I don’t find an answer, I’ll cave and give up the tonsils. But, it just doesn’t feel right. Know what I mean?

Mari-Jean...my son never had his tonsils out as a child. This was when the doctors needed to have a certain number of infections before they would consider removing them. Before this, they would routinely take them out.

As a result of not having them removed, he suffered every fall and winter with sore throats, swollen glands and pain from these illnesses.

When he was finally starting college and still having these problems, he was seen by an ENT specialist. This doctor couldn't believe what he saw...said his tonsils looked like swiss cheese. He said they should have been removed years earlier. By waiting, he went through a longer recovery period, more pain and general discomfort.

Since having them removed, he's had no infections or throat problems. This was one of those times that I wished I had done something sooner and insisted on their removal.

That's just our experience...yours may be entirely different.

That should by Sandy..not Sand!

Mari-Jean, I think it's a great idea to get more input from a variety of medical (and other) sources, but don't forget to ask the physician who suggested to take the tonsils out why he thinks it's necessary, why he thinks it can't wait etc. Another thought that came to me while reading your post is the following: make sure that you weigh all the advice objectively. It sounds a little bit to me as if you are going to take the advice of the alternative/complimentary physician, no matter what they say. It's tough not to favor the advice given from a source we are comfortable with. Take all the medical advice into consideration and ask about the long term impact for your daughter as Sandy suggested and then make your decision.
Best wishes for a full recovery to your daughter!

Hey all,

I take leave for a few weeks and so much has been discussed!! So many heavy issues.

As for right to life. I feel it is not my place to pass judgment on ANYONE for their choice. I am an equal opportunity respector. I respect everyones choices and do not judge as I certainly hate to be judged myself.

AS for honesty, I try very hard. I think I am teaching my kids right as my daughter found $8.00 in the U-scan (self check out line) at Walmart and she turned it in to the cashier. She didnt even think for a moment to pocket it. I was very proud of her. I have always tried to set the right example when that sort of thing happens. I called later and talked to the store manager as the cashier put the money in her pocket and never turned it in. She got in troubel and I dont know what happened to the money but at least the cashier didnt get to pocket it. I was very proud of Paige.

Paul, congrats on your award nomination!! Many more to come I am sure. I have recently tivo'd I robot and enjoy watching the fluid movements of the robots you so creativly gave movement and insperation to. I still say they move like dancers!!!! nice job!

Hello to all and hope you all are well. I have missed you all very much. I have been feeling well, still frustrated at work but what else is to be expected. Our house is now on the market and will hopefully sell very soon as we are anxious to move on.

Love to all

Kelly

Hello. I have never posted here, or much of anywhere for that matter. I just happened on this site in fact today. Watched "Joseph" yesterday and wanted to see who Paul was. Anyway, I am quite suprised to find this journal, and see how openly you dicuss your feelings. Kind of nice! I always think of famous people as rather "Diva-ish" and out of reach. I read back a ways and I like alot of what you have said. While I cant say I agree 100% on somethings it is pretty wonderful to be able discuss things like this in such a venue. Very cool site. I am sure I will be back. Very cool of you to be open to people!

Hi Michelle! I haven't seen Joseph yet. I looked for it but haven't been able to find it as of yet. Time to buy off the internet I think. ;)

I just wanted to write a note to say - I loved *everyone's* posts on this topic. Mari-Jean, your responses were particularly thoughtful and touching. You write beautifully and the sentiments were warmly appreciated.

Paul, I'm so sorry to hear about the losses you and your wife had suffered. I only have had one, early on in a pregnancy, but any miscarriages are awful to go through. Later I ended up doing my own research to discover that PCOS had been making my uterus an inhospitable place for embryos to implant. Wouldntcha know it - convinced my MD to start me on a (then experimental)med to remedy this, then 3 months later - 2 for 2!

Anyway, after I posted, I re-read this whole thread, and realized that Paul's initial post did seem to address more the Right-to-Death side of things. In my mind that certainly is a much different issue than "beginning of life" issues.

It's strange how the picketers and politicians don't necessarily make distinctions like that. Never mind than about the myriad of life events that mught bring a young girl to an abortion clinic, or an elderly, or terminally ill person to the decision to refuse treatment.

The moral dilemma of man's control over these matters has been with us as long as life & death itself. I don't think it will be solved in our lifetimes. But these are questions worth discussion. They go to the core of our humanity, and force us to consider our place & role in the fabric of the universe.

Peace,

Marie